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Alex:
Yes you can use some DVCam decks/cam to record DV and DVCam.
The decks are more limited since its a Sony thing. But the DHR1000 does record on both modes.
PD150 and some mid level DVcam do record on both modes.
"Anyone who buys a non-linear system that supports Mini-DV (they all do nowadays) requires you will have to own either own a Mini-DV deck or camera to work with the computer AND anyone who comes to you with a Mini-DV tape and is expecting a Mini-DV digital copy as an edit master."
If your NLE supports miniDV IT WILL SUPPORT DVCAM. They are compatible formats for NLEs.
"If however, you want to master onto DV-CAM rather than Mini-DV, as Sony prefers because the same amount of data is laid out over more distance on that tiny tape,thereby increasing the liklihood of data stability over the passage of time, you will need to own a DV-Cam Deck"
Solution:
Get a Sony deck that plays/rec both formats (ie DHR 1000, DSR 11).
http://bpgprod.sel.sony.com/bpcnav/a...oduct.BPC.html
Also, you cannot expect a deck to play several formats and complain if it does not. BetaSP decks dont play cheaper Beta Oxides, but everybody thinks BetaSP is great (like me)
"Have you ever tried to make a DV clone from Mini-DV to DV-CAM?
...
If you have actually made a mini-dv firewire dub over to a DV-CAM tape, please let us know, but don't just assume it is possible"
I have never assumed. I am speaking based on my personal/professional experience, conversations with hobbyists, prosumers and proffessional Avid editors.
Yes i have for my work, so as our in house Avid editor with his home FCP NLE, so has countless people in the DV world (just check the Canopus user group and other DV forums.)
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex:
Alex:
"Anyone who buys a non-linear system that supports Mini-DV (they all do nowadays) requires you will have to own either own a Mini-DV deck or camera to work with the computer AND anyone who comes to you with a Mini-DV tape and is expecting a Mini-DV digital copy as an edit master."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crimsonson:
If your NLE supports miniDV IT WILL SUPPORT DVCAM. They are compatible formats for NLEs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know that, that wasn't my point. My point was one should only buy a deck that does both DV-CAM AND Mini-DV recording, otherwise, you will end up needing at least two decks. I was not aware of any decks did both.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crimsonson:
Solution:
Get a Sony deck that plays/rec both formats (ie DHR 1000, DSR 11).
http://bpgprod.sel.sony.com/bpcnav/a...oduct.BPC.html
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm pleased to hear that Sony is selling decks that record in both DV and DV-CAM modes. The DSR-20 (a $2,900 dollar DV-CAM deck and the DSR-40, a $4,000 dollar DV-CAM deck, do NOT record in Mini-DV format, only in DV-CAM, but they will play back a Mini-DV tape.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex:
"If however, you want to master onto DV-CAM rather than Mini-DV, as Sony prefers because the same amount of data is laid out over more distance on that tiny tape,thereby increasing the liklihood of data stability over the passage of time, you will need to own a DV-Cam Deck"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crimsonson:
Also, you cannot expect a deck to play several formats and complain if it does not. BetaSP decks dont play cheaper Beta Oxides, but everybody thinks BetaSP is great (like me)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's incorrect, all Sony BetaCam Decks play back BetaCam Oxide/non SP tapes, however, only the BVW decks and perhaps the PVW BetaCam SP will let you record onto the Oxide format.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex:
"Have you ever tried to make a DV clone from Mini-DV to DV-CAM?
...
If you have actually made a mini-dv firewire dub over to a DV-CAM tape, please let us know, but don't just assume it is possible"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crimsonson:
I have never assumed. I am speaking based on my personal/professional experience, conversations with hobbyists, prosumers and professional Avid editors.
Yes I have for my work, so as our in house Avid editor with his home FCP NLE, so has countless people in the DV world (just check the Canopus user group and other DV forums.)
[/QUOTE
You didn't cite any examples in your previous post. That is why I was questioning your previous statement.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by crimsonson:
YES YOU CAN. DV, DVCam and DVC Pro (25) are all the SAME, with minor difference. The digital video signal are all the same, compressed the same way. They are under the big umbrella called DV25.
[/QUOTE
Your statement about DVC Pro is confusing. I rented a DVC Pro deck a year ago, and the ensuing master I made WOULD NOT PLAY in any DV-CAM deck.
I was told the DVC PRO deck I rented was the 25 meg a bits, bytes (???) per second, not the 50. Perhaps it was the 50...but then, who is using the 25???
I've had Panasonic Sales reps proudly tell me that DVC Pro is superior to DV-CAM, and that DVC-PRO does not play in Sony DV-CAM decks.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by crimsonson:
Regarding the 60 minute tape turned to 40. Minor factor, since DVCam have 184 minute tapes and DV also has a platter size tapes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't understand your statement. Mini-DV is Mini-Dv...60 minute maximum length unless you use the EP speed.
On a $4,000 dollar Sony DRS-40 deck, if you put a Mini-DV tape in the deck, it will automatically record at the DV-CAM setting, which will result in a tape record time of a little over 40 minutes, and then this tape WILL NOT play back in a Mini-DV camcorder.
Here's the bottom line for me, there is not one DV deck you can buy made by Sony for under $ 4,200 that will handle all of the basic necessities.
I will hazard a guess that the deck you mention that records both DV and Mini-DV is probably missing some crucial features that an experienced editor would insist on having.
DV is a 2 deck minimum.
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Alex
[This message has been edited by Alex (edited October 07, 2001).]
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Alex:
1. "That's incorrect, all Sony BetaCam Decks play back BetaCam Oxide/non SP tapes, however, only the BVW decks and perhaps the PVW BetaCam SP will let you record onto the Oxide format.
2. On a $4,000 dollar Sony DRS-40 deck, if you put a Mini-DV tape in the deck, it will automatically record at the DV-CAM setting, which will result in a tape record time of a little over 40 minutes, and then this tape WILL NOT play back in a Mini-DV camcorder.
Here's the bottom line for me, there is not one DV deck you can buy made by Sony for under $ 4,200 that will handle all of the basic necessities.
3. I will hazard a guess that the deck you mention that records both DV and Mini-DV is probably missing some crucial features that an experienced editor would insist on "
Crim Reply's:
1&2. Almost all DVCam deck playbacks DV. The low end BetaSP (UVW 1800 priced at least $4,500 used) may or may not play Oxides, and if you ruin the heads, Sony will not honor your warranty. Again, I ask, why are you allowing BetaSP to have this inconvinience while DVs can not. Plus a decent BetaSP rec/player is at least $4500 used and that is the UVW - the lowest models of the BetaSP line. Also, PVW and BVW start around the price of a new mid size car to up to a new Euro Sports Car. You price argument does not hold water when compared to BetaSP, the format you are arguing for.
3. The link I sent you was at Sony's proffessional line only, VTR - not VCRs. Designed for proffesional Avid type edit suites and some for industrial duplication. Please check the site again. And there is not a decent BetaSP VTR new UNDER $8000. B & H have the UVW 1800 for 8,500.
The DSR11 (the link I posted) is a PRO VTR priced under $3000.
Alex:
"I was told the DVC PRO deck I rented was the 25 meg a bits, bytes (???) per second, not the 50. Perhaps it was the 50...but then, who is using the 25???"
Crim:
DVC pro comes in two flavors - DV25 and DV 50. DV25 is popular among small to medium size news station markets and follow the 5:1, 4:1:1, etc compression format. The DVC Pro 50 is like JVC's D9/ Digital S. It is 50 Megabits/s, 4:2:2 and 3:1 compression ratio.
The early days of DV there where some problems, but most manufacturers have been addressing the problem. All formats face such problem. EVEn film.
Alex:
"Mini-DV is Mini-Dv...60 minute maximum length unless you use the EP speed."
Crim:
You can use DV tapes in DVCam decks. It will just record for about 33% less. So 60 min tape will result a 40 min in DVCam decks.
Alex:
"Here's the bottom line for me, there is not one DV deck you can buy made by Sony for under $ 4,200 that will handle all of the basic necessities."
OR A BETA SP for that matter.
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[This message has been edited by crimsonson (edited October 06, 2001).]
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex:
1. "That's incorrect, all Sony BetaCam Decks play back BetaCam Oxide/non SP tapes, however, only the BVW decks and perhaps the PVW BetaCam SP will let you record onto the Oxide format.
2. On a $4,000 dollar Sony DRS-40 deck, if you put a Mini-DV tape in the deck, it will automatically record at the DV-CAM setting, which will result in a tape record time of a little over 40 minutes, and then this tape WILL NOT play back in a Mini-DV camcorder.
Here's the bottom line for me, there is not one DV deck you can buy made by Sony for under $ 4,200 that will handle all of the basic necessities.
3. I will hazard a guess that the deck you mention that records both DV and Mini-DV is probably missing some crucial features that an experienced editor would insist on
-Alex
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Crim Reply's:
1&2. Almost all DVCam deck playbacks DV. The low end BetaSP (UVW 1800 priced at least $4,500 used) may or may not play Oxides, and if you ruin the heads, Sony will not honor your warranty. Again, I ask, why are you allowing BetaSP to have this inconvenience while DVs can not. Plus a decent BetaSP rec/player is at least $4500 used and that is the UVW - the lowest models of the BetaSP line. Also, PVW and BVW start around the price of a new mid size car to up to a new Euro Sports Car. You price argument does not hold water when compared to BetaSP, the format you are arguing for.
-Crimsonson
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All BetaCam SP decks play back Regular BetaCam Oxide tapes, and they will not harm the heads.
BetaCam SP Tape can harm the head of a regular, much older BetaCam only deck, but the reverse is not true, BetaCam Oxide won't harm the newer heads of BetaCam SP decks.
DV-CAM decks do playback Mini-DV, I have stated this myself...But many of these DV-CAm decks DO NOT RECORD IN MINI-DV, and unlike BetaCam Oxide, which was discontinued at the same time BetaCam Oxide recording was discouraged by Sony in favor of BetaCam SP,...Mini-DV is STILL GROWING in popularity, yet Sony won't let most of their DV-CAM decks record in the Mini-DV format.
That means something...
I think it means that Sony only recognizes Mini-DV for camera acquisition, and not for mastering.
If you check the original topic post question, it asked...."miniDV as a storage option"?
The answer is no if you make your living in media (DV-CAM would be the absolute minimum), yes if you want a low cost solution that allows you to create personal projects and master them on something of decent quality, but only if the project is under one hour in length.
-Alex
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The DSR11 (the link I posted) is a PRO VTR priced under $3000.
"Here's the bottom line for me, there is not one DV deck you can buy made by Sony for under $ 4,200 that will handle all of the basic necessities." -Alex
OR A BETA SP for that matter.
Crimsonson
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I said many posts ago that Mini-DV is probably the most cost-effective format on the planet.
But if you cannot record to both Mini-DV and DV-CAM, you may end up buying a second deck to allow you to do both digital formats.
Once you buy more than one digital deck, the cost-effectiveness begins to diminish, if you were to buy a camera, which is not a bad idea, you are now up to three digital recorders.
Not being able to make true fire-wire dubs because of the lack of a consistent time-code format between Mini-DV and DV-CAM is the Video Industry's way of putting a big "kick me" sign on Mini-DV.
It is meant as a dividing line between true professional mastering and home-use.
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Alex
[This message has been edited by Alex (edited October 07, 2001).]
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> Not being able to make true fire-wire dubs because of the lack of a consistent time-code
i use the insert function of edit to tape in fcp when i need a dub with the same time code. every tape starts at zero though, and i have to capture to the computer first which is a major hassle.
/matt
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The Broadcast world recognizes tapes that start at either 58:00 or 58:30 then you have black, color bars, black, and the "show" starts exactly at 1:00:00:00
The moment your tape is not time-code configured in this way, that "kick-me" sign on your back has been exposed.
apparently, The Final Cut Pro Software allows you to insert the correct Time-Code onto a Mini-DV tape.
But the fact you cannot make a true digital clone, replete with the exact same time-code, is a hinderance generally not accepted in the Broadcast professional world.
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Alex
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Roger, which DV board did you put in your computer?
In fact, everyone who reads this, and who has a DV capable board on the computer, list which one, and what you like about it, and don't like about it.
I need to get one, and don't know which one to get.
An important feature for me, is the ability to go beyond the 2GB maximum of AVI files. (I have a PC. I want to be able to play an entire feature in one pass, out to the deck to record, in real time.)
Matt Pacini
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Alex:
Again, I do not understand your crticism of a format that was intended for for consumers and prosumers. So what a DV deck cant play DVCam or vice versa (though some DO exist at around $2600). My point is, so does BetaSP decks. The cheapest affordable BetaSP recoders/player is the UVW 1800 at $8,500 new.
So what happens if your client brings a DV tape and you are DV CAm NLE? I ask the same question if you are BetaSP and they bring DigiBeta, BetaSX, VHS, S-VHS, DV, DV Cam, etc. etc. Its an argument that cannot hold since it can be applied across the board. And again tell me which BetaSP deck can play BetaOxides (still used by MANY stations across the country) that is less than $10,000. WE have a uvw1800 and it rejects the tape. It will refuse to play it. We also have a $12000 BVW deck, it plays it but often can get a tracking problem.
Apperently you seem to ingore the lack of bakwards compatibilty in the Beta world (DigiBeta, BetaSP, BetaSX)
"All BetaCam SP decks play back Regular BetaCam Oxide tapes, and they will not harm the heads."
My Post Production manager refuses to let me do it since Oxides 'leaves residues in the heads and rollers thus reducing their life span'. Replacing those can cost somewhere between $1500 - $2500, even more!!!!
Proof? Ours SP decks (UVW1800) refuse to play Oxides tapes and only responds to 'Eject'!
Alex quote:
"Not being able to make true fire-wire dubs because of the lack of a consistent time-code format between Mini-DV and DV-CAM is the Video Industry's way of putting a big "kick me" sign on Mini-DV."
Huh? DV was targeted for consumer/prosumer but the success have made it popular to News stations across the country.
The point of having DVCam was to give another fomrat with some compatibilty with DV but more 'pro'. Why are you so insistent of DV performaing exactly like DVCam? It does not make sense.
DV as an archival tool? sure you can, it may not be as convinient as with formats that have TC but if you know anything about batch digitising you can get around it.
Alex:
"(DV-CAM would be the absolute minimum), yes if you want a low cost solution that allows you to create personal projects and master them on something of decent quality, but only if the project is under one hour in length."
Crim:
Again, you are misinformed and ignored my last comments. ALL DV25, I REPEAT, ALL DV25 based formats have large size tapes that exceeds 2 hours. IN fact if you use a DVCam 184 minute tape and record in DV mode you will get 270 minutes.!!!! Yes, some miniDv decks can play DVCam.
Alex:
"The moment your tape is not time-code configured in this way, that "kick-me" sign on your back has been exposed."
Again, I question the validity of your comments! In a daily basis we have distributed to stations across the USA and some in Canada. Non of them rejected our tapes since it did not begin in TC 1.00.00.00. Some even did not care when one of our projects did not SMPTE standard TC.
Alex-
"But the fact you cannot make a true digital clone, replete with the exact same time-code, is a hinderance generally not accepted in the Broadcast professional world"
True but you ignored that fact that a lot of stations across America are using DV as their format and I am sure they get tapes of different formats, TC or no TC.
Matt:
Which software are you planning to base your NLE? If Premiere, the best choices are (in order of good to best IMHO) Raptor, RaptorRT ($600), Storm ($1200). ALl three are made by Canopus. The last two have real time functions and all 3 meet your stated prerequisites.
If Avid DV Xpress ($1600) then go OHCI (generic brand/drivers by Microsoft) which is about $60.
I have experience in all four of them (plus FCP). I own the Raptor and have nothing but praise for it. I am considering to uprgarde my hardware and software. Probably Avid DVXpress, since I use Avid Composer at work. The interface is simillar but not exact (for obvious reasons). DvExpress is closer to the last version of MCXpress.
Note: if you go OHCI and Premiere you should purchase purchase also MainConcept's DV codec ($50). If you dont you will be using Microsoft's, which is considered adequate but not great. Canopus's codec is considered best, in fact it is used by Avid for their DV Xpress NLE software. MainConcept is second.
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All BetaCam Decks will play back oxide tapes, the UVW BetaCam SP decks will not properly record a signal onto an Oxide Tape.
I own a few Betacam SP decks, they never "spit-out" a regular beta tape. They only "spit-out" the tape if you hit the record button on your UVW deck.
The regular Beta-cam oxide tape plays back fine in my UVW's.
I don't know about residue on the video heads...you are supposed to clean the heads every so often, and the decks do have a very good automatic head cleaner built into the units.
Sony doesn't abandon former formats when they come out with the same brand format but in a higher spec. You are very much in error on this point. (Which is why what they have done with Mini-DV versus DV-CAM is so frustrating.)
You can playback BetaCam Oxide tape on a UVW and PVW BetaCam SP record machine, you just can't record with BetaCam Oxide tape on the UVW BetaCam SP record decks...(I don't know if the PVW's can record on oxide tape)
The point is, BetaCam Oxide recording was phased out with the introduction of Beta-Cam SP ...Mini-DV is still growing quite rapidly...so to make DV-CAM decks that do NOT record in Mini-Dv makes no sense at all....
Unless you factor in the truth, Sony would prefer most if not all projects be edit mastered from the computer onto DV-CAM tape in DV-CAM mode, even if YOU SHOT IT in Mini-DV mode.
So if you were to buy a Sony DSR-20 or 40, which have a lot excellent features, you won't be able to record in Mini-DV mode, only DV-CAM, which means if a client asks for a Mini-DV edit master from the Non-linear Edit Master you made, you now need either an additional deck or camera that records mini-dv.
Heaven forbid they need 4 or 5 fire-wire dubs tape to tape after you have dumped the edit master from your computer.
You can't even give them an identical clone of the Mini-DV original unless you now go and Buy a THIRD deck, so you would now own two mini-dv decks or cameras, and one DV-CAM deck.
AND if the very next client wanted a DV-CAM edit master from the Non-linear Edit you do, then calls you up a week later, and you have already dumped the project from your computer, and asks for 5 identical clones from the DV-CAM master...YOU WOULD NEED A FOURTH DECK to make this happen.
Even though you found a deck that records in both formats, I guarantee you it must be missing many of the excellent features that were put on both the DSR-20 and DSR-40.
With BetaCam Oxide Tape I could make a component dub straight to BetaCam SP Tape and keep the time-code consistent.
Apparently, Sony does not give you that option between Mini-DV and DV-CAM.
I believe it ss Sony's desire to prevent playback problems that are naturally inherent the smaller you make the tape and the tape path area-Mini-DV.
DV-CAM spreads the data out over more tape area, which can help minimize playback problems at a later date.
I'm not too impressed that news stations never complain, they don't have time to complain, News means new, it ain't new a day later.
Most news stations basically care about that same days news, the rest is a bonus. They aren't going to fuss over time-code issues, but that doesn't mean a filmmaker should not care.
Filmmakers need to be able to make clones of their tapes for a myriad of reasons. And that includes keeping the time-code EXACT on every digital copy they need to send out.
News stations don't have time to be fussy. I get demo source tapes all the time from reporters looking to make a new demo reel, and virtually no attention has been paid to matching video or audio levels from one shot to the next.
And I'm not knocking the DV format....I'm simply pointing out that Sony has put barricades up between DV-CAM and Mini-DV, and I believe the reason they did this was to divide true broadcast professional spec's from consumer specs.
I don't think it's a good idea to record a final Non-Linear Master onto Mini-DV tape OR onto DV-CAM tape in the Mini-DV mode.
At this point in time, DV-CAM recording onto a DV-CAM tape makes the most sense for low-cost tape mastering in the digital realm.
Mini-DV will lead you to a false sense of security, there is no guarantee it will hold up anywhere near as well as DV-CAM.
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Alex
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Alex:
"All BetaCam Decks will play back oxide tapes, the UVW BetaCam SP decks will not properly record a signal onto an Oxide Tape."
Please, you are more welcome to come to our facilities and give the us intructions on how to play BetaOxides in BetaSP decks (UVW-1800).
Alex:
"You can playback BetaCam Oxide tape on a UVW and PVW BetaCam SP record machine, you just can't record with BetaCam Oxide tape on the UVW BetaCam SP record decks...(I don't know if the PVW's can record on oxide tape)
The point is, BetaCam Oxide recording was phased out with the introduction of Beta-Cam SP ...Mini-DV is still growing quite rapidly...so to make DV-CAM decks that do NOT record in Mini-Dv makes no sense at all...."
Why does it not make sense? mini-Dv is not a Sony invention or at least its not their propriety technology. DVCam is. Why would they let it increase demand on miniDV when DVCAM is competing against them. DVCam is Sony's own invention. They can do whatever they want. Why cant BetaSX play Beta SP?
And FYI Sony also want you to use DVCam (or other Sony formats) as an acquision format.
"So if you were to buy a Sony DSR-20 or 40, which have a lot excellent features, you won't be able to record in Mini-DV mode, only DV-CAM, which means if a client asks for a Mini-DV edit master from the Non-linear Edit Master you made, you now need either an additional deck or camera that records mini-dv.
...
You can't even give them an identical clone of the Mini-DV original unless you now go and Buy a THIRD deck, so you would now own two mini-dv decks or cameras, and one DV-CAM deck."
What happens if they ask for BetaSP, DigiBeta, BetaSX, VHS, SVHS, etc, etc? You still again need anaother deck! YOu argument does not make sense! you are singling out one format when I you can clearly ask the same on other formats.
Alex:
"Even though you found a deck that records in both formats, I guarantee you it must be missing many of the excellent features that were put on both the DSR-20 and DSR-40"
You are assuming. Please unless you have a specific function, your 'guarantee' is not a factor. FYI - that deck even does NRSC AND PAL. Try find a BetaSP deck under $3000 that does both!
Alex:
"With BetaCam Oxide Tape I could make a component dub straight to BetaCam SP Tape and keep the time-code consistent.
Apparently, Sony does not give you that option between Mini-DV and DV-CAM."
obviously they cant since WE BOTH KNOW miniDV cant DO TC!!! :0
And second why would they want to? Its a competing format against their own!
Alex:
"I'm not too impressed that news stations never complain, they don't have time to complain, News means new, it ain't new a day later.
Most news stations basically care about that same days news, the rest is a bonus. They aren't going to fuss over time-code issues, but that doesn't mean a filmmaker should not care.
Filmmakers need to be able to make clones of their tapes for a myriad of reasons. And that includes keeping the time-code EXACT on every digital copy they need to send out.
News stations don't have time to be fussy. I get demo source tapes all the time from reporters looking to make a new demo reel, and virtually no attention has been paid to matching video or audio levels from one shot to the next."
Again, you are making assumptions that has nothing to do with your experience (unless I am misinformed about your news background?).
1. Not all news pieces are produced the in one day! Infact a large protion of any news broadcast might have been in production for days and sometimes weeks (medical, science, biographical, investigative).
2. What we distribute to them is rarely needed in a timely manner, so they have more than enough time to request for something new, which sometimes they do.
3. Second we also distribute PSAs, to TV stations across America in VHS and SVHS- and they have nothing to do with news. DO you also have an explanation for that! We also have distributed to the newtworks with Beta containing broken TC. Hmmm
Alex:
"Mini-DV will lead you to a false sense of security, there is no guarantee it will hold up anywhere near as well as DV-CAM."
Hold up near anywhere? Unless TC is the biggest factor in formats IYHO, I must disagree since video and sound are exactly the same quality with DV and DVCam.
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